‘Can’t talk about future without reference to what AL has done’

Asif Nazrul, the law adviser to the interim government, has one of the most challenging tasks at hand as Bangladesh seeks a new start after the fall of Sheikh Hasina’s government on August 5.
In an interview with The Daily Star’s Golam Mortoza, he talks about the ways in which the judiciary can be reformed, and answers questions on the perceived errors of the interim government.
The following is the full interview with the law adviser, an excerpt of which was published on our print version. 
The Daily Star (DS): You took the oath on August 8. There is a lot of work to be done. What has been your experience so far?
Asif Nazrul (AN): I was a university teacher and a writer-journalist. I used to have a lot of time … I could live as I wished. But after taking charge of the ministry, it seems that there has been so much corruption, irregularity, injustice… so many problems. I’m at office 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week, and continuing work deep into the night even after returning home. But even after all this, it seems that so much more needs to be done.
After 17 years, the people of the country have regained freedom of speech; they are able to make demand in a free and intense voice; they can dream. There is so much expectation that the challenge of keeping up with it has become physically very difficult. But still, we are trying.
The joy of doing good work is always there. I am getting that joy. All of us spend a lot of time at work. We just think that people should be a little more patient and try to understand the situation.
DS: The pressure of expectation on the government is huge. Do you feel like you’re struggling to meet those expectations or things are happening that shouldn’t be happening?
AN: Many of us do not have the experience of running a government. If anyone starts work with little experience, he or she will make some mistakes. But it is important to see whether I have the will to do something good, whether I am working hard, whether I am trying to learn from my mistakes.
I think our interim government is trying to learn from its mistakes. If mistakes are found in the advisory council, [Chief Adviser Muhammad] Yunus even discusses those during our lunch breaks. Some mistakes can be corrected immediately, some maybe not.
I can’t say everything as I am sworn to secrecy, but I can confirm that we try to be aware of the mistakes. We may lack in how much we can learn or how quickly we can take action, but every day we are learning and evaluating our work. We are trying to understand what people think and hope to do better in future.
However, I would request everyone to don a sympathetic lens when assessing how much of the anger accumulated over 15 years of failure can be quelled by a 15-day government.
DS: People expect that popular faces like Yunus and Asif Nazrul, who are now in the government, can perform magic to solve all the problems. How would you meet these expectations?
AN: When people suddenly get such a big opportunity, they naturally want to see magic. It would be good if the wise people in our society, who understand matters of the state, try to explain the situation to the people. I am impressed by the work of our young coordinators, with whom I am working. They are very skilled and mature. We try to convey messages through them as well.
One thing must be understood, it is not possible for humans to do anything magical, [but] it is possible for people to do good things within the bounds of reality.
The way a section of HSC examinees have demanded not to take the exam is not supported by a large section of the society. Even students at Notre Dame College say they want to take the test. So we are all trying to learn from each other.
DS: Two perceptions have emerged from the recent demonstration of the HSC examinees that led to cancellation of the exams. One is that the government is very soft; they showed weakness by accepting the examinees’ demands. Another is that the students are still traumatised, and so their demands were accepted. But are we continuing the degradation seen in the education sector over the last 17 years?
AN: My first message is that the government is not weak; The government is kind and compassionate. We should consider the trauma these students, who took part in the movement, have gone through. You know that the examinees experienced similar traumatic situations after the Liberation War in 1971. We have taken their trauma into consideration; it is not our weakness.
I believe the interim government is not comfortable with this decision to cancel the exam. I discussed with the advisers and talked to the students. We are thinking about what can be done. I believe canceling exams did not set a good example.
DS: Will there be many reforms in the judiciary? Is it possible?
AN: It never seemed impossible to me. I am a law teacher. As I have said before, at least a third of the judges in the lower courts are my direct students. At least half the judges in the higher courts are known to me as colleagues, friends, and students. I worked for ADB-UNDP as a consultant for judicial reform. I am very confident that the independence and efficiency of the judiciary can be enhanced if intentions are good.
A popular opinion about judicial reform is that lower courts should be reformed first. The donors and the civil society also support this argument. In fact, if the independence of the judiciary is to be ensured, the higher courts must be reformed first.
You can say making the lower courts independent means putting them under full authority of the higher courts. The higher courts will govern and control the lower courts and the government will not intervene in these affairs. However, if the higher courts function as a subordinate part of the government, then what is the use of leaving the lower courts under their jurisdiction?
I have been working on it. There has been terrible anarchy in the appointment of judges to the higher courts. Not just incompetent, but corrupt and extremely partisan individuals have been appointed as judges in the Supreme Court. Even a previous chief justice expressed his anger about it.
This appointment-anarchy happened during the BNP government as well. It reached unprecedented levels during the unelected Awami League regime, which managed to seize power through sham elections.
The ways to reform the higher courts are fixing the recruitment laws and policy, reforming the sole and unlimited authority wielded by the chief justice over the judiciary, reorganising the GA committee of the Appellate Division and the High Court division, establishing an independent and dedicated secretariat for the higher courts.
Reform is certainly possible through such initiatives. You look at our current chief justice. He studied at Oxford, with a PhD from Tufts University. And most of the previous chief justices who served during the Awami League regime studied in ordinary law colleges of Bangladesh’s small towns. You will clearly see the difference in their professionalism. Do you think that the man who graduated from Oxford will be anyone’s mental slave? He is extremely knowledgeable and he has high self-esteem. And obviously, the thought process of someone who graduated from an ordinary small-town law college with questionable professional qualifications, and who was appointed chief justice just because of political allegiance, will be quite different.
DS: How will you ensure sustainability of these reform initiatives?
AN: We have set an example. When the next chief justice is appointed, all of you will be able to compare [the next CJ with the current one].
Second, we are trying to implement systemic change. If such a system can be developed that judges will be appointed to the High Court on the basis of competence and integrity, then we can ensure that judges of the Appellate Division and the chief justice will be appointed from this group of competent and fair judges.
We can develop a fair recruitment mechanism, but we cannot guarantee that this mechanism will ensure 100 percent efficiency. But it can be said that this mechanism can reduce corruption and anarchy significantly. After reforming the higher courts, we shall work on the lower courts.
Our chief adviser also believes that the judiciary is the most important sector of a country as it is the last hope of people. If this sector performs righteously, it is possible to resolve many issues including ensuring human rights and rule of law.
DS: Arrestees like Dipu Moni were attacked in court, and so it has been said the government could not or did not ensure their security. It may seem like a small incident but it can have a big impact.
AN: I felt really bad about these incidents, especially about what happened with Dipu Moni. But isn’t the past regime mainly responsible for the situation that has been created in the courts? They have oppressed countless numbers of people in the name of justice, they have taken away a critically ill patient’s right to have medical treatment, courts under direct political influence issued numerous predetermined verdicts. People’s right to cast votes were taken away and the role the ministers played … in short, by taking away people’s rights, making people victims of mass murder, the Awami League government has created such a state that we can only hope that people will behave politely, but cannot guarantee it.
Think of a family which has lost a member to enforced disappearance or extrajudicial killing, think of youngsters who have lost their jobs and have been forced to pull rickshaws in the cities to earn a living, think of those who were denied justice in the lower courts or higher courts, think of lawyers who were threatened. An advocate of the Supreme Court died from heart failure due to these threats. A justice who served under Awami League government took part in a procession after his retirement demanding justice for Khaleda Zia and was arrested from his home. Such oppression and pain accumulated for 15 years in people and in some cases we can see their outburst. It is not desirable but not unusual either.
We think not only our government, but society has a role to play in preventing such incidents. Everyone should play their part to stop such occurrences.
DS: It has become a practice for all governments to blame predecessors for all the ill deeds…
AN: The government that killed 1,000 people in two weeks, the government that shot children in the chest, the government that declared war on students, used helicopters to kill innocent people, raided neighbourhoods and arrested students at night – I would be committing a sin if I don’t blame them for what they did. I came to the interim government to meet the expectations of the people after the previous government fell in a popular coup. I think we should always recall what the AL government has done. No one can talk about the future without referring to what the Awami regime has done. It is quite impossible.
DS: There is a massive reshuffle in all the government sectors. Does reform mean just reshuffling?
AN: Before reforms, it must be ensured that the administration, police and everything else is taken out of the hands of those who have helped sustain an autocratic government for 15 years. Is it possible to implement reforms when the officials who committed extrajudicial killings are still in their posts? Is it possible to reform the police administration with Harun still in charge of DB police? This is why these people should be replaced by honest and competent officials.
Awami League was in power for 15 years. They have employed their henchmen in three layers of administration. We are looking for non-partisan, honest and competent officials, but many such officials are already retired. So, it will take time to find honest officials.
After bringing in these people, we will reform the policies. First, we are withdrawing the false cases filed over the July murders. Then we will try to change the policy and law so that this does not happen again in the future.
Competent people are being installed so that no one can obstruct the reform process. Reforms mean change in administration, making it people-oriented, inclusive, transparent and accountable. We will definitely do that.
The idea of reforming Bangladesh is nothing new. A lot of work has been done on it. Three-member alliance framework was developed back in 1991. In 1974-75, Sirajul Alam Khan proposed constitutional reforms. We had a lot of resources but there was absence of goodwill and pro-people leadership. Now, we have such a leader and I think we can do something good.
DS: Stalwarts of the previous government are being arrested on various charges, but there are questions about the charges. For example, the person who has been known to destroy the country’s financial sector has been arrested for attempting murder or for ordering to kill people. We saw such political cases being filed on ridiculous charges during the previous regime, and now we are seeing a continuation of that. Will police continue to file such cases or will you be able to reform them?
AN: The current cases are not ridiculous but questions may be brewing. They did not file any case against Sheikh Hasina on stealing fish, which she filed against Zafrullah Chowdhury.
As far as I understand and know, you have to take a lot of time and preparation to file financial cases. Will it be safer for a despised Awami League leader to walk the streets like a common citizen or will it be safer for him to be detained? You have to take this reality into consideration. Sometimes you have to detain them so that they cannot flee to any other country or get killed on the street by angry mobs and also because you want them to face trial for the crimes they have committed. Sometimes cases are filed to detain them hastily. Also many people have filed cases as they have lost their children during the July massacre. They are filing cases against the then prime minister as they think that she was responsible for the massacre. Would you call these cases controversial? If my child was killed, I would have also filed cases against Sheikh Hasina and Obaidul Quader. So, you can ask questions only about a few cases.
In some cases, I have heard that the people have surrounded the police station and forced the police to file cases against some local politicians. So, police are recording cases but that does not mean the accused are being punished at the same time. Now, taking a case does not mean someone is being punished. There can be an investigation even after taking a case into cognisance. It may seem that people are filing the case and the police are taking it. But this is a response to the situation created during the former regime. There is nothing else to do at the moment.
DS: Seven journalists have been accused in the murder of a student in Jatrabari. Such cases were filed during the previous government. Why are such cases still being filed?
AN: We cannot refrain a parent of a murdered student from filing a case at his discretion. The previous government had made it an established culture to file such cases. Perhaps we are seeing a continuation of it. However, we will look into it so that no one is harassed without proper investigation.
DS: If hundreds of such cases are filed all over the country, will it become a hindrance to the judicial process?
AN: If a childless father wants to file a case in a remote area of the country, who has the right to prevent or stop him? Neither Yunus nor me. In the July killings — not just killings, thousands of people were shot, lost eyes, seriously injured — if every person files a case against Sheikh Hasina or her government ministers for their command responsibility, I cannot stop anyone.  We are not encouraging anyone to file those cases. Naturally, people are filing cases to seek justice. We will only ensure that justice is done properly. It is the government’s responsibility to ensure that.
Suppose there are 50 murder cases against someone. Of these, perhaps two or three have been proven. Even if the rest is not proven, the purpose of the trial — getting the guilty punished — will be accomplished and the trauma of the victim’s mind will be somewhat healed. And if he gets acquitted in all the cases in the judicial process, then that will happen. At least the accused will take solace from the fact that he was tried fairly.
DS: The July massacre was not an isolated incident; it was a planned massacre. If the massacre was carefully chalked out in the PM’s residence and armed Chhatra League and Jubo League men were deployed to carry it out, why is it not possible to conduct the trial in a carefully planned manner?    
AN: It can be conducted in a planned way when the government will take an active part in the litigation process. That is why I said that the case can be filed in the International Criminal Court. We are working on it. The globally accepted definition of crimes against humanity is that it is a crime against humanity if there was a planned, widespread and systematic killing.
But judgement cannot be issued in a planned way. That becomes injustice. We will be able to work on the process of the case filing and investigation. Then the verdict is up to the judge.
DS: Ali Riaz warns you in his column that the judicial process should not be questioned in any way. Why he did he say this? What is the significance of this?
AN: I welcome civil society. They should keep an eye on every government. Civil society always tries to warn the government with good intentions. I was also a part of it. Now, as part of the government, I see that there has been nothing to worry about so far. Sometimes it seems that their advice is very acceptable. Sometimes I wonder if they took into consideration how corruption, arbitrariness, factionalism, personal worship have been inserted into the police and judicial system in the last 15 years? How is it possible that a 15-day-old government will run the state completely free of controversy with such an administration? They need to consider that we will need some time.
DS: They want to see if you are on that path.
AN: They will see whether we are on that path or not. We want them to criticise us if we stumble somewhere, if we make a mistake. But let them bear in mind the fact that in 15 years everything has been spoiled. How much good can I get out of this rotten stuff? It will take us time.
DS: This government is the product of a bloody revolution led by students. There were rumours of a judicial coup against this government. We could not verify whether the claim was true or false. When a military officer is fired, taken off a plane, and various stories are circulated about him, there is a kind of anxiety. There is also anxiety about what was done about August 15.
AN: Concerns should always be expressed. It will create a positive path for us. But if someone wants everything quickly, and if the expectation does not come from a logical context, it can confuse some people.
I would say, all those who express concern, just keep in mind the destruction that has been done to the country in 17 years.
The problem is not having concern about us, but the way people express their expectations. Many people know me for participating in television programs. People stopped my car on the street and began to voice their demands. I was surrounded by health workers a few days ago. They demanded that their job must be regularised under the government pay scale. I told them that you were appointed during the Awami League period and could not materialise this demand in the last 11 years and now you are pushing this demand to an 11-day old government. Is that logical? Is it logical that Prof Yunus reached his meeting with 65 ambassadors two and a half hours late after his office was surrounded. When you got independence after 17 years, you started to raise demands by blocking streets and government offices. Is that a rational thing to do? I leave these to your wise judgement.
After talking to the health workers, they came to my office and apologised for their actions, and they requested us to consider their demands. If you have demands, you should send those to us. You should give us a rational time to work on those demands. If we cannot fulfil those requirements, you can demonstrate in front of our office every day for one hour. This government is so young … you should give us a logical timeframe to work on your demands.
Another issue is that we have an acute crisis of resources. The Awami regime has burdened us with a massive debt of Tk 18 lakh crore. They have destroyed all the banks and siphoned off huge amounts of money. I know the real financial situation of the government. Now, if everyone demands a salary from the government, will it be possible for us to fulfil those demands?   
You can expect from us but don’t create obstacles for us. Don’t do anything that may ruin the revolution of students and the mass people. This is my request to all of you. 
DS: Many people have not understood what you meant when you said, “Reforms will take time, and elections will happen after reform.”  
AN: We cannot decide right now how long this government will last. This decision will be taken by the people of Bangladesh. That may be questionable, but notice that BNP, one of the biggest political parties in the country, said they would wait as long as it takes. When we talked to political parties, no one said you should leave by a certain time. If you want reforms and if you want the next election to be under an administration that will ensure fair elections, this government needs time to ensure that.
DS: Shouldn’t you say how long it will take?
AN: At some point, we shall definitely sit on this issue and clarify how much time we might need to hold the elections. But it will take some time. Right now, we have to do the urgent things first. If there is a fire somewhere, it must first be extinguished. How to restore things to their previous state will have to be discussed later.
We will then go to the people and say we want to do this and that, it will take this amount of time. If people want those reforms they will give time, if not they won’t.
The first task we have embarked upon is ensuring that there is no counter-revolution or conspiracy. There have been revolutions and counter-revolutions in various countries.
DS: Was the judicial coup really going to be a counter-revolution?
AN: Since it didn’t happen, we don’t know what the truth is. However, there was reason to fear that such a thing would happen.
Our priority is to prosecute the July murders, to ensure people’s treatment, to make the administration and police people-friendly.
DS: What measures are being taken to protect the financial sector, to ensure that money is not laundered and to bring back money that has been laundered abroad. Do you have the ability to catch the big money launderers?
AN: Yes, we have taken steps to prevent money laundering. Doesn’t it seem from looking at the appointments in Bangladesh Bank, the ministries of finance and planning that our intention is to stop irregularities in the financial sector? Do you not see the measures taken by Ahsan H Mansur after he was appointed Bangladesh Bank governor?
DS: Many people have asked whether this government is dynamic. Are all branches of government able to work together?
AN: Is everyone in the Argentina football team Messi? Is everyone in the France team Mbappe? No matter how big the team, can everyone play together in every game? We have no shortage of goodwill here, but there may be some lack of coordination. Everyone’s working style is different. If you see someone’s work, you may think that they are doing a lot of work. On the other hand, you may not understand someone else’s work as they work silently.
In football, we talk less about midfield or defensive players. The discussion is about the player who scored the goal. This happens everywhere. Maybe my work my work catches your eye because I am a known face, but the work of Saleh Uddin Ahmed or Fouzul Kabir Khan may not catch your eye. Maybe they are foinf more important work, but are not talking about it.
DS: Once a member of civil society, you are now in government. How are you perceiving this transformation?
AN: I am working hard. My favourite activities are rickshaw rides, playing tennis, going to Palashi Bazar and talking to traders, spending time with children. I can’t do these things now. But I am getting appreciation and love from people.
But I also think that at a time when I am getting all this praise, what is my wife getting? She used to become restless if she didn’t see me for a few hours, and now we just catch a glimpse of each other for days on end. During the movement, I was in hiding for four nights. She could not sleep, she stayed up those nights crying and praying. None of us will be able to understand this trauma. Now her life has changed, as has mine. She has to take on all the responsibilities of the family now. My work as an adviser may be praised, but no one will know of hers.  
DS: It is said that the students, whose movement brought you to power are trying to dictate you. They want to achieve many things within a short time and seem a bit restless. Do you face challenges to establish your control over these students? Do you have any message for them?
AN: We talk about six coordinators among all those who organised this student movement. Many others besides them had major roles. If I talk about these six coordinators, I don’t see restlessness in them. Their maturity, their sense of consciousness is incredible. And others who are not working with the government, but are with them from a distance, it is normal for them to be a little restless. From a distance, they do not understand how sincere the government is, or the hard work we have been doing.
I have only one request to everyone: don’t do anything that causes people to suffer. The picture that people did not want to see, that is what happened to Dipu Moni. Have a little patience. Sometimes I hear that the principal of a certain institution is being forced to resign, teachers are being listed, journalists are being listed — please don’t do this.
Our students are not a well-organised political party. I often see helplessness in our six coordinators. Is it possible for them to control everything? They are not the head of any autocratic political party, but the head of the movement. It is not possible for them to rush everything. But their sincerity is pure. they are trying. There are two divisions among these agitators. One is actually deprived. Another is those who try to take advantage; They may even be Awami League workers, trying to blend into this movement.
I repeat, please be patient. Don’t do anything that makes the revolution, which came through this infinite sacrifice, futile.
DS: Will you repeal or reform the laws that were made, including the Digital Security Act, to persecute journalists or the media?
AN: Your position on these oppressive laws and mine is not different. At one time my profession was journalism, then teaching. I still write regularly.
First of all, the application of these laws will not be the same as before. And we will review them very seriously. Stakeholders’ views will prevail there.